THE TENTH NIGHT.
The French islamothugs have attacked right in the HEART OF PARIS ----
From Agence France-Presse - and a translation by NO PASARAN:
UPDATE: AP/YAHOO: 28 cars torched inside the heart of Paris!
The French islamothugs have attacked right in the HEART OF PARIS ----
From Agence France-Presse - and a translation by NO PASARAN:
Even in the heart of Paris, four cars were targeted Saturday evening by nothing less than a flame thrower at Rue Dupuis, in the 3rd arrondissement, close to Place de la République, noted one journalist of the AFP.Maybe this will provoke the French into doing what's necessary...
UPDATE: AP/YAHOO: 28 cars torched inside the heart of Paris!
17 comments:
I think you forget that it isn't only Muslims doing the Rioting in France. It's several different Minorities living in the "gehttos" of Paris.
Remember, it was 2 people of AFRICAN decent that died. thats what started this rioting.
Dear Spartan,
"African" and "Muslim" are not exclusive categories.
I think the two youths who electrocuted themselves were North African, i.e. Maghrebien (either Algerian or Moroccan), and certainly Muslims.
By the way, why'd you choose the name "Spartan?" I must say that your attitude as reflected in your comments doesn't remind me of Dienekes or Leonidas.
Yes, 1 of the kids was muslim, the other was christian. This comming directly from French reports. The Riots were caused by uproar of both deaths. another immeadiate cause was little things like the french police gasing moseques full of muslims who were spending the night praying to celebrate Laylat al-Qadr. That would be your source for the muslim riots, however, there are also riots in other districts where the muslim population is not enough to sustain the amout of damage taking place.
And Spartan Is my nickname, I earned it in my tour of duty in Desrt Storm. It has little to do with my political philosophy.
Dear Spartan,
Thank you for your reply, and for your service. From your nickname, evidently your comrades in arms admired your military demeanor and prowess.
As for the two electrocuted youths, who were not fleeing ppolice, according to the police, but were believed to have been fleeing the police, according to the news sources I've been able to locate, they were identified as "Ziad," clearly a Muslim, as you acknowledge, and "Banou." I don't know if "Banou" is a Muslim name or not. It is a Persian name, and is also associated with North Africa. I have read an Al Jazeera report that identified both youths as "North African," but Al Jazeera is not necessarily completely trustworthy. I haven't seen the reports you cite, but you may indeed be correct. If you can supply a citation, it'd be appreciated.
In any event, M. le Ministre Sarkozy and M. le Ministre de Villepin have been meeting with leaders of Muslim communities, Imams and so forth. I think the reality on the ground is that most if not all of the rioters are Muslims, and that their sense of their identity as Muslims is important to them in this struggle.
In determining the cause of the riots, we should distinguish between the pretext, and the underlying causes. What the media like to call the root causes. As you seem to imply, undoubtedly the failure of the French economic/social model is one of the major reasons for the riots that are taking place. The immigrant populations are maintained in separate communities where they won't interfere with the French. If that means keeping them on the dole for decades, so be it. Rampant unemployment, etc.
As a result, some immigrants --and their France-born children-- are increasingly seeing themselves as settlers, rather than immigrants. That is, they are increasingly viewing their communities as islands of a Maghrebien outpost of the Ummah, which should be subject to Shari'a law rather than French law. The French response, until the current riots, has been to let them be, to allow the gangs to police the "foreign" enclaves. The results are apparent. Undoubtedly the Saudi-funded Wahhabi enterprise has not been absent from metropolitain France, perhaps in concord with the Algerian "Salafist group for preaching and combat" that recently identified the French state as its enemy number one.
It is likely that the initial riot was entirely spontaneous. Over the subsequent 10 days, the rioting appears to have become more organized. It is unlikely that the rioters will accomplish much other than the stepwise degradation of French prestige in their communities.
I have been led to believe that at least in some former French colonies in North Africa, the French decision not to participate in Gulf War II was seen not as a strong gesture of defiance against America, but rather as an admission of weakness towards the Arab world, and a willingness to accept the role of a dhimmi and pay the jizya. That viewpoint may have encouraged the rioters that they had little to expect from French authorities except acceptance and understanding.
Time will tell.
Something that I hadn't seen mentioned much until I ran across it at Austin Bay's blog is the issue of the recent apartment fires in Paris. You may remember that several apartment-houses used by African immigrants, some of them squatters, were burned down in separate incidents. In one case, two young girls set fire to the apartment house of someone they didn't like; in another, a woman who had set out a panoply of candles to present an exciting evening for her intended paramour became enraged with him and overturned the display. The specifics of the other cases I don't remember.
But there were a series of fires that killed dozens of immigrants, and I am sure that contributed to the atmosphere of frustration and rage.
Jamal, I visited your interesting blog. If you sincerely believe that the riots were caused by "the class struggle that is fuelled by the antagonism between the proletariat and Capitalism," please provide some evidence. It takes more than slogans to prove your point.
There have been ample press reports over the past few years to suggest that Salafi preachers in France are inculcating French youngsters with a disdain for Western culture (including Marxism, mon vieux). You yourself admit that jihadist elements are playing a role.
I am certain that the mainstream Muslim community is not participating in the riots, and does not support them. However, since the police have abandoned La Banlieue to the gangsters, the Muslim majority is cowed into silence and submission.
If you can read French I'd gladly cite my report you, otherwise Im not sure many here would trust my translation.
You were right, according to the report the 3 boys (one of them lived) were not fleeing the police when incedent happened. According to French Reports, htye wera apart of a large group of youths playing Soccer in a field when police asked for their papers. the group spread out and fled, the 3 that were electrocuted according to police reports were not being followed.
I agree, from what I have seen, it is almost all angry youth causing the riots. I think the majority of the Muslim population has little to do with the riots. I also think the French Police could have done a much better Job containing theese Riots instead of gasing mosaques and shouting ethnic slurs.
Mon cher Spartan,
Mais bien sur je pourrais lire les rapports que vous serez si obligeant de noua offrir, et je ne serais point oblige de faire confiance dans vos gentilles traductions. Quand meme, je suis un peu atteint par la manque de confiance que vous montrez en moi; bien sur je ferais volontiers confiance dans vos efforts!
Tout de meme, aintenant qu'une trentaine de policiers ont ete blesses par des pistolets a grenaille, on attend que ca va vraiment barder.
A bientot,
Gandalin
sparty baby:
I speak French too:
mon dieu!
sacre bleu!
cherchez la femme!
garcon!
deu vins rouge!
and the most famous French saying
(it might be the national motto:
i surrender.
heh.
My confidence was not lost in you, but reliapundit as we've butted heads many times in the past.
as you can read French, I reccomend the french version of the Wikipedia Report as it's been updated by people there.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89meutes_de_2005_en_banlieue_parisienne
That will have the neccecary Links to police reports and eyewitness accounts.
and as to you reliapundit, I must admit that last joke was funny.
Dear Spartan,
I have to admit that I don't use the Wikipedia in any language. It has never seemed like a reliable idea to me, perhaps I am not with-it enough for the times, and I am aware that its coverage of any area that might be controversial is often the subject of bitter debate. So I hadn't thought of checking it out.
The Wikipedia article is interesting, and I am grateful to you for pointing it out.
There is a lot in there, and I note that the history of the "emeutes" (apt word!) is traced back at least as far as an episode of rioting and car bruning in 1979.
As to the specific question that prompted this exchange of sources --whether one of the dead youths professed faith in the Catholic Church-- the Wikipedia article is very interesting. First of all, the question of religion or of a faith-community is not really addressed in the article. The word "Islamiste," for example, only appears at the very end, in a quote from an Algerian newspaper, and the word "Catholic" does not appear at all.
The full names of the two dead youths are, however, given. The one we had assumed already was Muslim is Ziad Benna. The other is mentioned as Banou Traore.
Now simply googling the name Traore reveals that it is Malian in origin. There are several well-known Malian personalities with the name Traore. Now in Mali, 90% of the people are Muslim, 9% follow "traditional beliefs," and 1% are Christian. So if Banou Traore was really Catholic, this event would have involved quite a rarity.
I'm sorry, but the document that you cite does not support your contention, but rather serves to cast further doubt upon it.
It still appears that the three youths who clambered into the sub-station were Muslim. And the recent "fatwa" issued by a group of Islamic clerics condemning the rioting further supports the notion that most, if not all, of the rioters are Muslims.
I will grant you that up to the present time, the fact that they are Muslims appears from the outside at least to be a demographic accident, and that the rioters themselves have not announced the defense and propagation of Islam itself as their project, as for example of course Bin Laden and Zarqawi do.
Gandalin
gandalin;
rioters HAVE been heard chanting JIHAD -
so i disagree with your last observation.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/008882.php
spencer has a link to a video of rioters chanting allahuakbar.
it IS an islamicist insurrection.
Gandalin,
It appears my sources were wrong on a few accounts and I'd like to appologize.
You are right to have your doubts about wikipedia, as it updates often and frequently with information being changed at a rapid rate, apperently I read too much into the B.S ers that like to play around with current events. but I still stand at my previos statments that it is not a part of "Jihad" nor is it only muslims doing the rioting.
As to organization, French Police reports state that of the rioters they have detained, they have found courdnation to be of E-mail and Text messaging via cellular communications.
Reliapundit,
Jihad isn't agianst democracy, Jihad is agianst America and it's allies who consistanly interveen in Midle Eastern affiars, It is a spawn of the Cold War when both Superpowers focused on munipulating and bending the world to their view, "jihad" as you understand it has no reason to target France, They didn't support us In Iraq, They don't gennerally interfear and piss off the indiginous population of the Middle east.
Spartan,
You don't have to apologize for the inaccuracy of your sources. One of the great things about the blogosphere is the rapidity with which mistaken impressions can be corrected, and with which so many different sources of information can be brought to bear on a question.
I appreciate that you don't want to jump to conclusions about the rioting that has now spread to 300 French cities, and also involves Aarhus, Brussels, Bremen, and Berlin.
However, I saw the videotape to which Reliapundit refers, and the rioters are clearly shouting "Allahu Akbar!" I've read their comments to the press, and on internet pages, in which they proclaim that "this" is their territory. I'm not sure if "this" means the immigrant zone, or the whole of Europe.
It is I think clear, whether we like or not, that whatever its character during the first night or two of violence in Clichy, the riots that now involve all of metropolitain France are taking on the character of jihad -- a struggle of Muslims against non-Muslims, in which an appeal is made to Divine right.
I don't claim that 100% of the rioters are jihadists or even Muslims. Undoubtedly, non-Muslims and non-jihadists are being swept up in the rioting, perhaps merely from excitement and frustration, but perhaps also out of a desire to fit in with their surroundings. But I think that the "vanguard" of the rioters, if you will permit me to use a Leninist phrase, is composed of committed jihadists. And they are the ones who seem to be giving leadership to the mobs.
To say that jihad is "against America" and that the anti-American French should therefore expect to be spared, is I think missing the point as to the significance of jihad. Jihad didn't begin in 2005, or 2003, or 2001, or even 1776. The jihad began 1300 years ago. Jihad raids into France began in the eighth century, I think, and were not even finally ended by Charles Martel's victory at Poitiers. The fight of the Algerians against the French in the 1830s had the character of a jihad. Abd el Kader was unless I am mistaken a Sufi religoious leader as well as a military commander.
By the way, France conquered most of North Africa in the 19th century, making colonies or protectorates of Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Mauritania, and Mali. And after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, France assumed hegemony over Syria and Lebanon. France has a long history of intervening in Middle Eastern affairs.
Since 1970 or so, the French government decided to throw its lot in with the Arab countries, and has pursued a pro-Arab policy. This policy has not helped them. Their failure to join the US and the UK in overthrowing Saddam Hussein was not greeted with gratitude in the Arab world, but seen as a weak willingness to accept their proper role as dhimmis. Part of the reason the ritoing is os widespread is that the rioters do not fear the French police or the French state. The rioters feel that they have already won. If they can force Chirac to fire Sarkozy, something that Chirac would probably like to do anyway, they will have won a significant battle. Imagine that -- they will have shown that the position is not filled by elections in France, but by the militant actions of the mob. Of the jihadist mob, as it happens. They will prove to themselves, and to the rest of the militant, jihadist world, that France is at their mercy.
Certainly the jihadists do NOT represent all Muslims. In Algeria, the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat has been conducting a war against the Algerian government in which over 100,000 people, perhaps as many as 200,000 people have been killed. The Algerian jihadists have beheaded entire villages.
And they just recently proclaimed that France was their "enemy number one." Undoubtedly they have sympathizers and supporters, perhaps even hardened cadres, in the "hexagone" as well.
That the riots have been sustained for 12 nights is remarkable. That the riots have spread to over 300 French communities is remarkable. This may very well be a critical turning point. Nothing we have seen to date suggests that the French government is remotely prepared, capable, or willing to confront the problem of a widespread jihadist revolt. If that's the direction in which this phenomenon grows, you are going to be very surprised by what you see.
Gandalin
sparytman;
what he said.
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