"ALL CAPS IN DEFENSE OF LIBERTY IS NO VICE."

Friday, February 18, 2011

TEACHERS IN WISCONSIN MAKE MORE THAN TWICE THE PER CAPITA INCOME OF THEIR FELLOW WISCONSINITES (UPDATED)

THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE, ISN'T IT: THEY DON'T PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE OF BENEFITS.

AND THEY'RE REFUSING TO PAY EVEN THE TOKEN AMOUNT THAT THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNOR AND THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED STATE LEGISLATURE WANTS THEM TO BEGIN PAYING. (VIA GLENN!)

THIS WILL NOT STAND.


THEIR THUGGISH ANTI-DEMOCRATIC TACTICS WILL NOT WORK.

THE PEOPLE, UNITED, CAN NEVER BE DEFEATED.

UPDATE: INSTALANCHE! THANKS, GLENN! HE HAS LOTS MORE HERE.

28 comments:

Kevin said...

Dude, I hate to defend a bunch of greedy unionists, but do you know what "per capita" means? It means "per person", as in ALL persons, including infants and elderly and retirees and pot smoking jobless hippies.

Somewhat less than 50% of the total population works (for the U.S., that's ~140 M jobs out of a population of ~310 M), and the income of that minority of humans who have jobs is divided among everybody to get at per-capita income.

What that means is someone making literally TWICE the per capita income makes LESS THAN THE AVERAGE INCOME for an employed person. Get it?

I'd guess teachers make more than the average, but your stat does NOT happen to tell us that, not by a long shot.

Kevin said...

Dude, I hate to defend a bunch of greedy unionists, but do you know what "per capita" means? It means "per person", as in ALL persons, including infants and elderly and retirees and pot smoking jobless hippies.

Somewhat less than 50% of the total population works (for the U.S., that's ~140 M jobs out of a population of ~310 M), and the income of that minority of humans who have jobs is divided among everybody to get at per-capita income.

What that means is someone making literally TWICE the per capita income makes LESS THAN THE AVERAGE INCOME for an employed person. Get it?

I'd guess teachers make more than the average, but your stat does NOT happen to tell us that, not by a long shot.

ACR said...

I'm not sure your per capita income statistic makes the point you want it to make. A household with two married teachers and two children has a per capita income that approximates the Wisconsin average.

Kristopher said...

Unions offer benefit concessions for bargaining rights: http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/education/blog/article_0b783598-3bb4-11e0-b872-001cc4c03286.html

Kristopher said...

Unions offer benefit concessions for bargaining rights:

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/education/blog/article_0b783598-3bb4-11e0-b872-001cc4c03286.html

Reliapundit said...

ACR:

I'VE ADDED SOME MORE LINKS:

THE AVERAGE TEACHER SALARY IS MORE THAN THE MEDIAN HOUSEHOLD INCOME AND NEARLY HALF OF THE HOUSEHOLDS ARE 2 EARNER HOUSEHOLDS.

BOTTOM-LINE: THEY ARE WELL PAID; THEY CAN AFFORD TO PAY MORE FOR THEIR BENNIES!

kmg said...

Plus teachers work only 9 months out of the year. And only 6 hours a day.

If their pay is calculated on a per hour basis, they make TRIPLE the average salary.

kmg said...

Feminism has a lot to do with teachers being overpaid.

Read this article for more.

Essentially, by using a 'women will suffer' tactic, they can get needy, chivalrous Republicans to support leftism.

Republicans support and and ll leftism as long as it is packaged as 'chivalry'.

ACR said...

I still see deficiencies in using household incomes. By definition, our teacher earning an income is employed. Therefore, we'd expect a teacher-led household to have a higher income than a retiree-headed household. Wisconsin had a 2009
unemployment rate of 8.5%, and we'd expect teachers to have higher household incomes than the unemployed. The statewide household income stats don't consider education level either -- teachers always have at least a bachelor degree and we'd expect, in general, that college educated workers earn more than those without college degrees.

Household incomes are okay, but I'd prefer to compare teachers to households with at least one employed member with a college degree.

Joe & Stephanie said...

I'm a California resident, so I don't really have a dog in the WI fight. However, Calif is facing a lot of the same issues that WI is facing: we're all out of money and everyone has to sacrifice. Even teachers.

I find it ironic that the same teachers who claim to care so much about the children are willing to shut the school system down in order to campaign for their demands. Is that hypocritical, or what?

arkjer said...

According to the above linked site, a waiter in Wisco makes $10,000 more than a teacher. Lawyer, accountant, professor and designer all make more as well.

And I read that teachers make over $100,000 average in Wisco. The linked site says $48,000. Which is it?

arkjer said...

Oh, and we didn't get a 4.7% raise last year. Wisconsin caps education spending at 3.6% annually. This is called the Quallified Economic Offer, or QEO. Try a google search. Districts cannot increase ed spending more than 3.6% without a referrendum. Most of that 3.6% goes for increased health care costs. For example, in my district, pay increased about 10% from 1997 to 2007, while average wages in the country increased about 25% over that time period. I'm not saying we're underpaid (but check out BLS data on average income for people with a masters degree for an accurate comparison). But overpaid? As a commentor above mentioned, using per-capita income, just about every job is overpaid. And your link had per-capita income from 1999 in Wisco.

Always On Watch said...

I've linked to this in my post today.

Reliapundit said...

arkjer: the 2nd per capita link is more recent.

Reliapundit said...

a waiter prob works more than 9 months, and also works harder than the avg teacher.

i've done a bit of both.

Always On Watch said...

And what happens when the teachers' payrolls cannot be met? Funds to pay public employees are not infinite!

Goddess of the Classroom said...

Teachers DO work more than six hours a day and nine months a year. When we're not teaching, we're planning lessons, grading papers, filling out mandated reports, attending mandated training and resertication to keep our licenses--etc.
My work day is 7:30-3:30. I have a 30 minute lunch perod.
We often have to do so much more than teach to address the shortcomings of parents.
I am not asking for sympathy; I'm asking for justice. I do not agree with the Wisconsin unions' tactics at all, but the antiteacher misinformation is unbecoming to what I expect from conservatives.

Reliapundit said...

puhleeeeeeze: 730 to 330?! hah! what: including the commute?!

and does that mean you shouldn't contribute to your own health care!? or pension!?

sheesh.

all you're claiming is that you work 40 hours.

big effin deal.

i work 60 hour weeks and pay for most of my own healthcare.

and that of all the TAX-GETTERS, TOO!

it's time all public employees paid their fair share for their unbelievably GREAT bennies.

THIS IS WAR.

WE WILL WIN.

THE AXIS OF TAXES IS BEING TOPPLED.

THE DEMOCRAT PARTY-GOVERNMENT UNION COMPLEX IS BEING DISMANTLED.

JeanneB said...

Here is the info I wish I could find for WI gov't workers/teachers. I'd like to see education administrator averages broken out, too.

--Average salary

--Avg cost of benefits

--How many workdays a year? (re: teachers)

--Age they can retire with pension AND health care

--Description of health care coverage. Is it "cadillac"? Is it "for life"? For spouse/dependents after retire? Even survivors after teacher's death?

--How much are union dues????

--Also...do they have FICA deducted? If not, these new contributions are less than our FICA.

As for days worked, I know teachers who work hard and we appreciate it. But here's a clue: we ALL work hard. And then there's the summer...they DO NOT work in summer. So please don't bore us with the implication that teachers work harder than we do.

harbinger75 said...

Reliapundit... you're embarrassing - and I say that as a small (L) libertarian.

I support the Wisconsin governor and abhor the union thugs tactics in this battle... but don't defame all teachers because of your ignorance. There are plenty of crappy teachers that don't deserve a dime of taxpayer money but the good ones deserve a reasonable salary. Good teachers work their tails off and certainly put in more than 40 hours a week and 9 months a year worth of work.
The problem in this battle is that the unions are fighting to preserve an unreasonable pay and benefits structure.

A sniper who takes out the enemy is a hero... one who just shoots is a murderer. Which one do you want to be?

RoFi Mike said...

"Average Teacher salaries for job postings in Wisconsin are 17% lower than average Teacher salaries for job postings nationwide."

From your top link.

It's tough to make the broad comparisons you're trying to make, and I'm a bit disappointed in your overreaction. It's cute and fun, I guess. So grats on that.

The thing is, a teacher is worth more to both private companies and the public at large than, say, the average artist or line cook. So isn't it fair for a teacher to be paid more?

How is the argument that specialized laborers in GDP-boosting positions are bad for making more than the average person not teetering on socialism?

Reliapundit said...

hi rofi mike:

you wrote:

"a teacher is worth more to both private companies and the public at large than, say, the average artist or line cook. So isn't it fair for a teacher to be paid more?"

ME:

"worth" is determined by the free market.

for a gvt worker it's what the gvt say the worth is.

now that the state govt is controlled by the GOP - and now that we can't afford the deals that govt unions used to get - the t
"worth"; is changing.

thuggery can't change that.

teachers must pay their fair share.

the election result is changing the worth for teachers.

DON'T LIKE THAT?!?!?

then work toward a different result next election.

but thuggery - like we've seen in wisc - won't work.

Reliapundit said...

harbinger 75:

u r a n effin piece of SHITE.

you wrote:

"defame all teachers because of your ignorance"

i don;lt defame a single person.

not u either when i call you a idiotiic turd.

i say: "teachers should pay their fair share."

that's not defamatory you asshole.

arkjer said...

Posting a response to Jeneane B.

I'm a high school econ teacher in Wisco. In my district (ALL districts have different pay schedules. We don't work for the state), I get...

-$54,381 base(masters degree and 14 years of experience at the same school). About $3000 combined coaching pay for Track and Cross Country. About $600 to teach six weeks of summer school fitness classes to the little ones. Call it $58,000. Starting teachers in my district make just above $34,000. We top out at $63k.

-A benefits package adds about $30,000 if you have a family health plan. Maybe $10,000 if you don't.

-We pay FICA. We get social security when we retire. This is not the case in some states (Ill).

-Union dues are about $750 a year, or about $30 a paycheck. There is a direct withdrawl from my paycheck. I must pay dues, but can get about half of that money (the PAC money) back if I choose to be a non-voting member (this is called Fair Share).

-Full retirement age is 65. My district allows early retirement at 55, but you get less money. A formula is used to determine when you get benefits from the WRS (Wisconsin Retirement System). For many teahcers, it is profitable to retire at 55 after 32 years of experience, and get, like, 80% of pay, then supplement retirement income by working as a sub (subs earn about $100 a day for an eight hour day, and it is a crappy job) or find another job. Our district has been very generous in allowing retired teachers to stay on our health plan until 65, but the retiree has to pay what a teacher would normally pay for the benefit.

-The Wisconsin Retirement System is extremely healthy and well run. It has over $80 billion in holdings and is one of the few state pension plans that is solvent.

-Teachers are contracted for a 191 day year. Kids go 180. We cannot start with kids until Sept 1st. That's state law. Yet athletics starts earlier. Cross Country and Volleyball start the third monday in August. Football starts the first monday in August, so coaches and athletes get a reduced summer break.

-Our district health plan is not a very good plan. We pay 10% for our benefits (so the gov's plan wouldn't hurt us as badly). The plan is complicated, as are all health plans. In network, out of network... Basically, you pay 20% of everthing out of network and 10% of everything in newtork up to $4,000 per year (not counting co-pay for perscriptions). So, someone that has a family illness or is struggling with cancer has a nice benefit and can only have an out of pocket expense of 4k. Someone who is relatively healthy and has to go to the doctor infrequently might end-up paying $1000 for shots and physicals and so on. But some of the preventative stuff is covered at 100% (like a mammogram). The plan isn't horrible, but not great. My private sector wife had a far better plan. Still, these are the things our local school district has done to manage cost. In order to get small raises, we've had to negotiate on benefits. Each district has their own plan.

-I typicall work a 55 hour week during the off season (no track or cross). I still run and lift weights after school, and in most cases I'm running with students. I go in at 7:00 and get home at 5:00. I do an extra 40 minutes of work at night. In season, with Tuesday and Saturday meets, I'll be working 75 hours easily. Summer is much easier. I work 3.5 with the youth programs (but that is federal money).

Donald Douglas said...

Linked: 'Majority of Americans Against Public Employee Unions'.

Reliapundit said...

thanks for your comments/info arkjer.

a 30,000 bennie package: awesome!

time to fork up some more towards that and accept COLA until the next election.

The Vegas Art Guy said...

Wow, I make 36K a year teaching in NV. I'm on my wife's insurance because it's better than the one the district offers. I didn't get a raise at all last year. And while I acknowledge that we don't work a full year, we spend plenty of time working outside the classroom. I work 7 hours a day at school and then at least 2 more at home grading and planning, that includes working on the weekends. I also have to participate in PERS which is a ponzi scheme. I only get to draw my pension until I die then the rest goes back into the PERS system. That's right, my wife would get nothing. I'd much rather have a 401K than this garbage.

But I think the teachers in WI who betrayed their students by getting 'sick' should not only be fired for breach of contract I think their teaching licenses should be revoked as well. I'd love to see an effort to recall the Democratic Senators who fled the state. Could you imagine the reaction if the GOP had done the same?

I would never do that to my students. I signed a contract to teach and I will honor that contract.

Public Employee unions need to be brought under control.

arkjer said...

COLA? I'd love a cost of living adjustment! We just passed our contract for the 2009-10 school year (we were working without a contract) and we will get a 1.3% pay raise for last year (retroactive pay). Last Monday the board approved our contract for this year with a .8% raise. And this occured after months of brutal negotiation with a school board that is actually quite good to deal with. Now, SS COLA for those two years is 0.0, but our raises combined from 2006-2010 were far below the 5.8% COLA increase for 2008 alone. Combine the COLA increases from, say, 2000- 2008 and we are, perhaps, at a third of those increases combined.

Look, you all want to change the rules, so let's change the rules. I'll take the hit when times are bad, but on the condition that I get a nice bonus when times are good. If you are unwilling to give me the pay when times are good, it's disingenous to ask me to "suffer like everyone else" when times suck. And again, from 1997-2007 our district pay increased just over 10%, but nationwide, average earnings increased just over 25%. That is a significant difference, to say the least.

Look, folks, I don't have any simple solutions. This is a difficult situation. The budget needs to be balanced and that must be done by cutting public funding or increasing taxes. Minnesota is increasing taxes. We're cutting funding to schools in WI. Neither is a good solution, both with significant drawbacks.

But, to better understand the issue, please do a little research Understand that this is Wisconsin! Ed spending and teacher pay has been capped for a very, very long time. This isn't CA or IL or OH or CT. Our pay simply hasn't kept pace.