BBC:
The German government has a list of at least 437 flights suspected of being operated by the CIA in German airspace, according to a German magazine. The weekly Der Spiegel said two planes alone accounted for 137 and 146 uses of airspace or landings in 2002 and 2003.The "Left party" and the ACLU might as well be DIRECTLY acting on behalf of the jihadoterrorists. WHY DO THEY DO THIS? Because they hate everything the USA stands for, and they want us to lose - be "chastized", as they were able to do to us during the Vietnam War.
"Such planes could be used to transfer presumed terrorists and place them in secret locations," Der Spiegel said. ... A US rights group, the American Civil Liberties Union, said it was taking the CIA to court over what it said was the violation of both US and international law.
The highly secretive process is known as "extraordinary rendition" whereby intelligence agencies move and interrogate terrorism suspects outside the US, where they have no American legal protection.
Some individuals have claimed they were flown by the CIA to countries like Syria and Egypt, where they were tortured. The list of suspected CIA flights was handed over by German air traffic controllers at the request of the Left Party, Der Spiegel said in its latest edition to be published on Monday. It said the aircraft had made landings in Berlin, Frankfurt and the US airbase at Ramstein. However, the list has not shed any light on what the planes were carrying, the BBC's Tristana Moore in Berlin reports.
7 comments:
So are you saying that you support the idea that American officials can fly people around the world to torture them? But that at the same time this should be done secretly because if America publicly admitted to doing such a thing, it would cause problems?
Your position is inconsistent. If you think that the practice is acceptable, then you should support having the administration admit it openly. If you think it is unacceptable, then you should support the right of other countries to demand proof that it is not happening. If the stories are made up, that will become clear when people examine the evidence.
What exactly are you claiming the US stands for in this case? Torturing people in secret? If that is what America stands for now, then I am against America. If America still stands for freedom and democracy, then the administration should explain what all those flights were used for. If they had a legitimate purpose, then it would be easy to prove what they were for. If not, then the people responsible for committing crimes should be held accountable. The actions in the first place hurt America. The coverup hurts America. Forcing the guilty parties to admit to what they have done helps America (if there are no guilty parties then a court case will dispell the rumours, which will also help America).
James
James,
You say that if America stands for torturing people in secret, then you are against America.
Are you against America, or against the American policy of torturing people in secret?
That's an important distinction.
Surely, you know that America contributes a lot of good to the world in terms of economic growth and technology, and charity. You wouldn't want all that to go away because America has one bad policy, which it may have enacted on a few hundred people.
And, surely you are aware that America has at times sustained itself against brutal enemies by having been even more brutal than them.
For instance, we dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And, I'm glad we did.
At some point, the Left is going to have to realize that brutality is sometimes needed, and sometimes, one must stand back and ask oneself, which civilization would you prefer to see survive.
In the case of the Japan of the 1940's, I'm sure you would agree, it is better that America triumphed. In the case of our current war, surely the answer is even more obvious.
There are no examples of Muslim countries which are productive, and respecting of civil rights in anywhere near the degree of Western countries. Here are some links:
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~stwright/rel/islam/arab-stagnation.html
http://www.rbas.undp.org/ahdr2.cfm?menu=10
So the CIA may be flying terrorists around the world. Where is the evidence that a single one of them has been tortured? Why jump to that conclusion unless you have already made up your mind that the USA is evil, and deserves to be punished in 2005 for Wounded Knee, the Amistad, "Bloody Harlan," the replacement of an insane leftist like Mossadegh with the Shah, and who knows what else supposed "crimes"???
As a matter of fact, we know for certain that every leftist statist regime in the world's history practiced "democide" -- slaughtering millions of its own citizens. Whether the Russian communists with the deliberately induced Ukrainian famine and the gulag, or the Nazi "National SOCIALISTS" with their death camps and the mass-murder of millions on-the-spot, or the Chinese communists with their famines and mass killings, or the Cambodians who killed 25% of their own population, or Mugabe who is consigning his own people to starvation, or Castro & Che who murdered thousands of innocent Cubans and imprison tens of thousands more and keep their beautiful island "Cuba linda" mired in artifical poverty, or the Ba'ath SOCIALISM Saddam Hussein who caused the deaths of two million Muslims in his war against Iran, and killed 500,000 to millions more Iraqi citizens in death camps and in poison gas attacks -- that's what we're up against when we "face off" against the LEFT.
The United States doesn't stand for such barbarism, nor for the cruelty and barbaric savagery of the jihadists.
The United States remains a beacon of light to the entire world! I don't see the Barbra Streisands, Jane Fondas, and Alec Baldwins fleeing to SOCIALIST Europe, do you?
And I don't see tens of thousands of starving victims of the capitalist world frantically fleeing on makeshift rafts to the warm welcome of booming SOCIALIST economies, either.
No, the tens of thousands of refugees who RISK THEIR LIVES in unsafe makeshift vessels are fleeing to the capitalist world, to freedom, in the USA and Europe.
Wake up already!
Gandalin
secret actions are not all illegal James.
d-day was a secret. it was not illegal.
we need to porotect the nations where these secret prisons are so that they and the prisons don't become targets.
james: i think you're a brainwashed ass who regurgutates left-wing noinsense.
examine what you think. use logic and facts.
you'll see that what you've thought all these years is WRONG. like this stupid comment you've posted.
BTW: much has been made of the fact that the IDF doesn;t use torture. but most people forget it was BANNED by the Israzeli Supreme Court. becasue of a suit brought by the Left.
so, in effect, the Left disarmwed the IDF of a POSSIBLE tool.
Personally. I can think of many situatiuons and many people where torture would be fine.
certainly the THREAT of torture against TERRORISTS who arer NOT signatories to ANY TREAY is oikay.
but asshole lefties like you want even THAT THREAT OT TORTURE to be non-exisitnet. and the threat of torture IS an effective tool.
sheesh: you are either SOOOOOOO stupid, or the enemy.
There are two reasons to keep things secret. The first reason is because letting people know they are happening would prevent them from working, which is the reason that it would be treasonous to reveal the details of planned military operations before they take place. The other reason is shame, which is the reasons many neo-nazis try to deny that the concentration camps ever existed. The first reason never applies after the events have been finished. Which means that a government should always be willing to admit to what it was doing in the past.
It is known that America flew planes through various airports. It is not known for certain who was on those planes or why they were being moved. There are allegations that people were being moved to secret locations so that they could be tortured. The ACLU has filed a court case with those allegations in order to determine if they are true. If the allegations are not true, then the justice system will prove that. If they are true, then the justice system will prove that. Either way, all that a court case does is force people to admit to things that are true. The details of the case can be sealed so that only a small number of lawyers and the people directly affected can see the evidence that is presented.
I personally believe that torturing people is always wrong. If parts of the US government have been involved in torturing people, I want that to be reported so that the people involved can be punished and the torturing will stop.
If you think that torture is acceptable, why do you think it has to be done secretly? If the US government is actually torturing people, then I think every member of the government should proudly proclaim the reasons for doing so. If it is something the American people agree with, then legislators can run on it to be elected. Reliapundit, you said you can think of many situations where toture would be fine. Why don't you write a letter to your representative and senators asking them to publicly claim that they support torture in those situations. If it is a good idea, then they should run on it so that their leftist opponents that oppose torture can be soundly defeated. Maybe you should even try to get the Republican party to put a policy of torture in its platform, so that Republicans nationwide can gain the benefit of showing that they are so serious about fighting terrorism that they will even torture suspected terrorists.
James
the THREAT odnmtorture is necessary.
maikng it illegal takes away the THREAT of torture.
abu ghraib had virtually NO TORTURE, but lots of DEGRADATION.
i think it was ad hoc/pesonal/warped, and had NO MILITARY/DEFENSE UTILITY.
but one day it might.
i don't want to tie the hands of MY govt.
i don;t want to PREVENT the FBI from talking to the CIA, and VICE VERSA - like ABLE DANGER.
we need to maintain MAIMUM FLEXIBILITY,
or we will defeat ourselves.
sometimes we will have to beb as brutal as the enemoy to defeat the enemy.
that does not makes "AS BAD AS" the enemy - wehich is what assholes and the left argues.
WHY DOESN'T IT!?
because we are fiughting for freedopm and the enemy is fighting for tyranny.
sometimes the ends justifies some of the means.
is it TRICKY!?
Is it a slippery slope!?
Damn sure betcha it is!
but let's leave the moraliizations up to FUTURE historians.
and let5's let the military get the job done.
let's not hamper them.
that just makes it too damn tough for us to win.
which is what the Left and our enemy wants.
James,
You say that a government should always be willing to admit to what it was doing in the past.
Okay, but let's wait until we win the war! The war against Islamofascist terrorism is far from over, and revealing to the terrorists the operational details of all of the various strategies and tactics we are using against them would give them an advantage that can only translate into more deaths of innocent people. Now is not the time for history's final verdict -- now is the time to win the war. The media outlets that are so blinded by their senseless hatred for George W. Bush are helping the enemy. They are objectively aiding and abetting the same enemy who blows up innocent children in Baghdad, in Beslan, and in London and Madrid. That is treason.
Torture is not the issue here.
There is no evidence that any terrorist who might have been on one of the flights in question was ever tortured.
There was REAL TORTURE at Abu Ghraib prison when Saddam ran it. There is no evidence of a single episode of REAL TORTURE at Abu Ghraib prison under American authority.
There is NO TORTURE at Guantanamo. Guantanamo is practically a country club. Every fanatical demand of the terrorists is catered to by a politically correct US military.
Torture is not the issue here.
The issue is TREASON committed by TRAITORS who would rather live under a totalitarian, Islamist, socialist tyranny than in a free society.
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