****UPDATED**** 3/9/05**** SEE BELOW****
What does it say about the neojihadists that their demonstration in Beirut today was a man-only affair?
YUP: that's right: While watching news reports on TV and looking at jpegs at blogs, I couldn't help but notice a HUGE difference between the two sides in Lebanon: on the one hand, the anti-Syria demonstrations in Beirut were obviously, totally PLURALISTIC: men and women; Christians, Druze, and Sunni; and people of all ages; and they were all HAPPILY proclaiming their the occupation of their country by the fear-mongering forces of anger and repression. On the other hand, today's Hizballah demonstration was huge, but exclusively male - and angry looking; even their speakers sounded angry - ESPECIALLY Nasrallah.
I think this says a lot about each side - EVERYTHING, in fact.
Besides explicitly demonstrating their beliefs, each side implicitly demonstrated what kind of nation they would engender: the anti-Syrian side showed that they embody pluralism and democracy - and even "the pursuit of happiness." Hizballah showed that they are sexist, xenophobic, and violent-at-heart. This is a classic "Good versus Evil" match-up, and it's why we must be willing to support the anti-Syrian side with EVERYTHING we got!
AND ANOTHER THING: Were all those angry pro-Syrian men Lebanese?
I find that very VERY hard to believe. HERE'S WHY: news agencies estimated the Hizballah crowd at nearly one MILLION people - THAT'S 25% of Lebanon's population! And since it was a MALE ONLY crowd, that would mean that the total pro-Hizballah population (which after all - like the general population - include an equal amount of women) would account for 50% of the nation's population!
THEREFORE, I think ONE MUST CONCLUDE that many MANY MANY of the Hizballah men demonstrating were Syrian - or Palestinian Arabs from the UN refugee camps. (AT LEAST HALF!)
That's ANOTHER reason we must support the pluralistic, pro-democracy - LEBANESE side over the pro-Syrian forces!
UPDATE #3: a few astute commenters - and a more recently filed AP report (cited above in the INSTAPUNDIT link) - relate that perhaps the crowd was ONLY HALF as big as earlier reports: ONLY 500,000 (and NOT 1 MIllion). Further, these more recently filed reports state that the crowd was largely segregated by gender; this may account for the fact that many MANY videos and MOST still photos showed only males.
This adjusts BUT DOES NOT NEGATE the thrust of my argument that: (1) Hizballah's crowd was mostly male; (2) that it was mostly VERY angry; (3) that its staging reveals that Hizballah is very sexist/gender-biased; (4) and that they may have coerced many people to attend. If there were 500,000 Lebanese Shias there, then it was nearly 50% of ALL the Shias in Lebanon! I believe that this is simply NOT LIKELY; therefore, I believe non-Lebanese people made up much of the Hizballah crowd.
Bottom-line: Commies Stalin and Mao got huge crowds. Commie Kim Jong Il still does. These leaders - like Nasrallah I suspect - made their people afraid NOT to show up and wave the flag. Which is another reason why I have more respect for the Christian, Druze and Sunni Lebanese who demontrate each day in Beirut's Martyr's Square: they show up and demonstrate at great peril. Whereas, I suspect that many of those in the Hizballah crowd were people who (like Stalin's and Mao's and Kim's tryannized people) were afraid NOT to demonstrate!
UPDATE: Welcome Dean Esmay readers! And also - welcome leftwing readers of ANTIWARBLOG . (That's right: those Lefties who THINK they're anti-war - but who're REALLY ON THE OTHER SIDE - have linked to this post! I'm glad they did; they are WELCOME to visit today and everyday and to leave comments AS LONG AS THEY ARE POLITE. Dialog is good, and openness to the other side is often an antedote to propaganda; in other words: maybe a few of them will learn something).
****UPDATE - From Jihad Watch:
The giant Hezbollah rally that drew nearly half a million purported supporters of Syria's occupation of Lebanon actually was a staged hoax with non-Lebanese citizens, Syrian workers, students and municipal employees coerced into joining the protest, former Lebanese Prime Minister Michel Aoun told WorldNetDaily in an exclusive interview this morning. "Yesterday's huge protest calling for Syria to stay made it look to the world like a large segment of the Lebanese population actually wants to live under Syrian occupation," said Aoun, speaking to WND from Paris. "But the protest wasn't what it appeared to be. It was an elaborately staged affair."
UPDATE - 3/10: Welcome PUBLIUS PUNDIT readers - and if your not one... YOU SHOULD BE; really: Publius does some AMAZING round-up on very topical events. One of the Best sites around! The above link will take you to his LEBANON round-up. Check it out and then check out the rest. That's an order!
UPDATE 3/12: Welcome to the intrepid and delusional loony-leftie readers of Tiny Revolution. Here's a special note just for you DU-type DOUBTERS -
CBS NEWS REPORTED THE FOLLOWING ON MARCH 8th:
"Many of the people were bused in from Syria and parts of Lebanon that are under Syrian control, reports CBS News' Edward Yeranian. "
Nasrallah called on Arab world to “destroy US arrogance,” denounced Resolution 1559 that requires Syrian withdrawal and Lebanese militias to disarm and shouted: We are not Ukraine! We are Lebanon!” and “Death to Israel!
ReplyDeleteITS SO OBVIOUS WHO THE ENEMY IS!
There was one picture with a woman in it (cute one, too). Instpundit has it near the top. The photographer must have tried really hard to find that shot, because in the background, there wasn't a SINGLE female to be seen.
ReplyDeleteTV (Harry)
I recall an early report indicating that men and women were directed to separate portions of the square. That said, I agree with SK that the freedom-loving Lebanese men stand with the hotties while the Hezbollah-types prefer the company of men (not that there's anything wrong with it.)
ReplyDeleteThe crowd was obviously predominantly male and angry. BUt the BBC report by Orna Gheiron (sp?) went out of its way to show a lot of women, including mostly uncovered ones. The BBC were clearly doing a little propaganda, as usual.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteyou think she's hot? That is what we call "marekka" back in Lebanon. Nothin but street trash.
ReplyDeleteIt is amazing as I'm reading this I'm reminded by how much we (one portion of LEbanese society) have in common with Western society and how much the other portion does not. Lebanon is a tragedy and we are the biggest casualty.
Thank God someone said it. I wasn't going to make a post on this until tomorrow, but you hit it right on the head. There are over 250,000 illegal Syrian workers inside Lebanon. Couple that with all the bussing in directly from Syria, other remote locations, and forcing people to go out there, and you have the numbers that they do.To believe that this is a real show from the LEBANESE would be a crock of -- well-- something.
ReplyDeleteTo paraphrase PJ O'Rourke, if you want to know where society is headed, follow the pretty girls.
ReplyDeleteI think it's ridiculous to think that Syria has no or few support in Lebanon. It's an undeniable thing that Syria has large support, especially from Muslims.
ReplyDeleteThis is natural and logical if you consider the nature of politics in Lebanon. It is ridiculous to attempt to belittle Syrian support in Lebanon, when we know that there's division, between people who look for a pro-West position, and others who look for a pro-Arab position.
The famous, massive Million Man March in the 90's was estimated by the park service to have 400,000 participants. They filled the Capitol Mall and had big Sony screens so that the people down mall could see.
ReplyDeleteAnd these guys are claiming 500,000 filled this public square in Lebanon. Right. Even with side street overflow there is just no way.
Mabye Charles at LGF or you all can do a crowd comparison flash like the Rather forgery. Those Million Man March pictures can still be Googled up.
Canyonman
Well, I think you've got your facts a little bit wrong on the march. The men and women were seperated into two different groups. The men marched seperately, and then the women came after them or something to that effect; so yes the 500,000 nummber does include women. Also the Shia make up 40 percent of the population of Lebanon, and oh yeah that makes them the largest sect in the country; so were the pro-democracy protests really more democratic?
ReplyDeletelook who is scrambling for consipracy theories now :-)
ReplyDelete"I believe non-Lebanese people made up much of the Hizballah crowd."
ReplyDeleteMay be they were Martians? or may be they were sent by Kim of Korea or Castro of Cuba? may be they called 1-800-rent-a-demonstrator?
"I suspect that many of those in the Hizballah crowd were people who (like Stalin's and Mao's and Kim's tryannized people) were afraid NOT to demonstrate"
and you base your delusion, err suspecion, on what?
BTW, did Stalin allow thousands of the opposition to demonstrate?
The Lebanese have spoken, so you guys should shut the fuck up for once and see what THEY want for THEIR country. Quit meddling in others business.
Leave it to the "I hate the West" crowd to crawl out of the woodwork to rush to a totalitarian regime's defense. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. "Hezbollah has spoken, and that's good enough for me, so shut the fuck up about it and let them and their Syrian minders get back to the business of bringing the rest of those rascally Lebananese to heel in peace!" Predictable.
ReplyDeleteHow many of the 500,000 pro-Syrian demonstrators are Syrian guest workers?You tell me, because I don't know.
ReplyDeleteThe men and women in the crowd would have been segregated b/c Hezbollah is an Islamic party. (So notes a friend.)
ReplyDeleteIf there were women, did all journalists choose not to photograph them?
But even if half the crowd was female, the 1,000,000 is still implausible.
JBC
The Emirates Economist
if you check the list of all the Lebanese parties and groups that called for this demonstartion along with hizballah you might get a better understanding of the numbers.
ReplyDeleteThe Western media orchestra has decided that ALL demonstartors were shia and/or hizballah crowd. That is not true, there were large numbers of lebanese from all confessions in this demonstartion.
Maronites, Syrian orthodox, Druze , sunnis etc especially from the North, South , and the Bekaa.
Lebanese politics is too complicated for those who cannot undertand anything except through some sort of a simplified color-coded scheme or a disneyland.
There are many from these regions who could not make it to beirut for lack of transportation. the Syrian buses were EMPTY and were called upon to help transporting people. Many syrian bus drivers refused to come for fear of being harrassed after recent events and the ugly racism of many in the opposition.
We shall see after the lebanese elections, if all those demonstartors were syrian workers or cubans or martians or whatever some might want to delude themselves with.
if you check the list of all the Lebanese parties and groups that called for this demonstartion along with hizballah you might get a better understanding of the numbers.
ReplyDeleteThe Western media orchestra has decided that ALL demonstartors were shia and/or hizballah crowd. That is not true, there were large numbers of lebanese from all confessions in this demonstartion.
Maronites, Syrian orthodox, Druze , sunnis etc especially from the North, South , and the Bekaa.
Lebanese politics is too complicated for those who cannot undertand anything except through some sort of a simplified color-coded scheme or a disneyland.
There are many from these regions who could not make it to beirut for lack of transportation. the Syrian buses were EMPTY and were called upon to help transporting people. Many syrian bus drivers refused to come for fear of being harrassed after recent events and the ugly racism of many in the opposition.
We shall see after the lebanese elections, if all those demonstartors were syrian workers or cubans or martians or whatever some might want to delude themselves with.
if you check the list of all the Lebanese parties and groups that called for this demonstartion along with hizballah you might get a better understanding of the numbers.
ReplyDeleteThe Western media orchestra has decided that ALL demonstartors were shia and/or hizballah crowd. That is not true, there were large numbers of lebanese from all confessions in this demonstartion.
Maronites, Syrian orthodox, Druze , sunnis etc especially from the North, South , and the Bekaa.
Lebanese politics is too complicated for those who cannot undertand anything except through some sort of a simplified color-coded scheme or a disneyland.
There are many from these regions who could not make it to beirut for lack of transportation. the Syrian buses were EMPTY and were called upon to help transporting people. Many syrian bus drivers refused to come for fear of being harrassed after recent events and the ugly racism of many in the opposition.
We shall see after the lebanese elections, if all those demonstartors were syrian workers or cubans or martians or whatever some might want to delude themselves with.
I love it when those who claim, no make that pretend, to advocate democracy in the middle east are exposed for what they really are: a war mongering, anti-arab crowd.
ReplyDeleteThe Lebanese opposition was given free reign to demonstrate for more than a week, and they did in ample numbers. Now when they are overshadowed by the other voices of Lebanon you guys start looking for straws to hang on. Get a clue.
Anonymous (one of them...who knows which) says that conservatives who "pretend" to support Democracy are looking for straws to hang on to by questioning the validity of the demonstration yesterday in Syria.
ReplyDeleteThis is, of course, pathetic for many reasons. First and foremost, Hizbollah, the organizers of hte demonstration are anti-democratic, so one would hope that all supporters of democracy in the ME would hope that such a demonstration is not as popular as it appears to be, for fear of what that would mean to democracy, something "Anonymous" doesn't seem to even "pretend" to care about in their Quixotic quest to hang something around Bush's neck. It's not democratic to say something is good just because big numbers turned out for it. If that were true, you'd have to call people undemocratic for being disturbed by the Nuremburg rallies.
Secondly, we've seen these kinds of massive demonstrations before, in Iraq for example, under Hussein. It's very difficult to take seriously demonstrations that support autocratic regimes and dictators, or the terrorist organizations they support, exactly because they are skilled in organizing this kind of mass demonstration. The Nazis, Italian Fascists, and Soviet Union were experts at it and Saddam Hussein was no slouch either. There are plenty of ways to get people to turn out for these things (food, money, threats, etc.). The anti-Syria demonstrations, however, carry immediate validity because they are challenges to the ruling power. In all likelyhood, those numbers are depressed, because of the risk involved.
So Anonymous (that one, not this one) doesn't get it, and doesn't seem near as interested in democracy as those he/she attempts to criticize.
"At least one opposition leader said the pro-Syrian government pressured people to turn out Tuesday and some reports said Syria bused in people from across the border."
ReplyDeleteSurprise, the Syrian dictatorship is forcing their subjects to parade for them. Look at the shiner on the guy's forhead carrying the only female in that instapundit picture. He wasn't killed because he agreed to show up there.
Lebanon is right on the border with Israel/palestinians. I can believe maybe 80,000 Lebanese being there tho, coerced or whatever.
"Hizbollah"
ReplyDeleteI don't correct spelling, but it's Hisb'Allah, as in party of the moon deity worship silliness.
"It's very difficult to take seriously demonstrations that support autocratic regimes and dictators,"
ReplyDeleteTranslation: people that disagree with me or with Dear Leader don't count.
"The anti-Syria demonstrations, however, carry immediate validity "
Translation: They are valid because they agree with me and Dear Leader.
Yes, I'm not interested in pretending to advocate democracy and when face with opposing view they brush them a side. Unlike you and other Bushbots, I recognize that Lebanon has many voices, some are not buying Dear Leader's line.
There is one common thread which inseperably links syria and lebanon. That would be their unending hatred of Jews.
ReplyDeleteThere is one common thread which inseperably links syria and lebanon. That would be their unending hatred of Jews.
ReplyDeleteAn honest person denounces first the occupations of his own government, then those of his governments allies, then those of his governments enemies. Reversing this order is called hypocrisy if it remains without consequence and criminal with it.
ReplyDeleteWell in response to "Anonymous"'s post regarding how "Anonymous" doesn't get democracy in the Middle East, first of all Lebanon is ALREADY democratic. The Lebanese have had a history of regular and mosly free parlimentary elections, so comparing Hezbollah, and their Lebanese rally to Nazi Germany, or even Saddam Hussein is a false analogy (since there were absoultely no free elections during those regimes). The main argument that the Bush adminstartion makes in regard to this situation is that Lebanon cannot be completly free unless all Syrian troops leave. But was West Germany not considered a free country even though there were half a million US troops "occupying" them for fifty years? Did the West Germans ever elect a government that was not pro-US during that time? Of course the US never would dream of interferring in German politics, and the Big Bad Soviet Union was licking its chops just waiting for the chance to pounce on West Germany, so there were good reasons to have US troops in Germany. The Lebanese can make the same argument though, that they do not want Israel to invade their country as Israel has a history of "occupying" Arab lands, and indeed has invaded Lebanon several times. But of course Israel did that for security reasons. So one man's occupation is another man's security...and around and around we go.
ReplyDeleteWell in response to "Anonymous"'s post regarding how "Anonymous" doesn't get democracy in the Middle East, first of all Lebanon is ALREADY democratic. The Lebanese have had a history of regular and mosly free parlimentary elections, so comparing Hezbollah, and their Lebanese rally to Nazi Germany, or even Saddam Hussein is a false analogy (since there were absoultely no free elections during those regimes). The main argument that the Bush adminstartion makes in regard to this situation is that Lebanon cannot be completly free unless all Syrian troops leave. But was West Germany not considered a free country even though there were half a million US troops "occupying" them for fifty years? Did the West Germans ever elect a government that was not pro-US during that time? Of course the US never would dream of interferring in German politics, and the Big Bad Soviet Union was licking its chops just waiting for the chance to pounce on West Germany, so there were good reasons to have US troops in Germany. The Lebanese can make the same argument though, that they do not want Israel to invade their country as Israel has a history of "occupying" Arab lands, and indeed has invaded Lebanon several times. But of course Israel did that for security reasons. So one man's occupation is another man's security...and around and around we go.
ReplyDeleteThe occupation of Germany analogy is a sweet one... if we're talking about East Germany, that is. They were ALREADY democratic, too. They even put it in their name: the German Democratic Republic. What more proof did we really need than that?
ReplyDeleteWhat have I learned from this thread?
ReplyDeleteThat any group of people that tells me what I want to hear is right.
And that any group of people (especially if they’re substantially more numerous!) that tells me what I don’t want to hear is wrong.
While hardly logical, it does help to explain how dummies like Bush/Kerry became convinced that perpetual war in Asia was somehow in America’s best interests.
Anonymous said "The Lebanese opposition was given free reign to demonstrate for more than a week, and they did in ample numbers."
ReplyDeleteNot according to the BBC:
Lebanon protesters defy rally ban .
Which is to say, rallies had been banned, and still they mustered as many as 70,000 in one protest I read about. That's a hell of a lot more weight than some 100,000 to 500,000 (does anyone really know the number or believe the upper range?) officially sanctioned "protesters" bussed in under duress.
ReplyDeleteThe pro-Lebanon celebrations were joyful...
ReplyDeleteThe pro-Syrian's hateful...
Are your really so hateful yourselves that you would fail to notice the signs were in English to pander to "useful idiots"?
The reflection upon those that would support tyranny in their comments here is just as ugly.
Your shameful support of the horror of the 25,000 bayonets of the Hizbullies buys the blood of innocents in the near future.
Which you will blame on someone else as well...
Never mind the sudden demonstration of an anti-American, pro-Syrian crowd here. Appropriately enough, they've been bused in from another blog.
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